Talk:Labour Vilakismus Front

Peasant vs Worker Revolutions

Very interesting. I like the religious colouring to their politics, it provides some realistic background to the ideas of the party and their formation.

I'd just like to make a note on the difference between workers and peasant revolts, which you may or may not be aware of. While peasant uprisings are one means to overthrow a ruling class, they can only ever be militant, and with the state have a monopoly on military power, they are easily crushed.

Workers on the other hand have very real power which can squeeze the bourgeoisie in ways peasants never can, i.e. their ability to withdraw labour and thus halting to profits of the capitalists. If a peasant tried to stop working, they'd starve, since they own and live off the remainder of the products they produce that aren't taken by the state. If they tried to hoard their products, the state could easily militarily force it from their hands. Workers on the other hand can live without producing their products (they never own and live directly off the products they produce to begin with), or can simply seize control of factories and produce products for themselves and their fellow workers (which still prevents the goods from being sold for profit). A coordinated worker's strike - typically with the help of an established union and strikes of workers from other industries in solidarity - can effectively hurt the capitalists and threaten their business with ruination.

In a revolutionary situation, this can go as far as to threaten the very foundation of a state. For example the Kornilov Affair in Russia during the revolutionary months of 1917, an attempted military coup against the Provisional Government led by General Kornilov, was essentially swept aside and rendered toothless through a coordinated worker's effort, with trains carrying troops and munitions being diverted to completely different locales. The coup also further concreted the worker's sense of their own power, thus laying more foundations for the eventual overthrow of the provisional government and transferral of power to the soviets. The power of workers is such that even a working class comprising say 10% or 20% of the population (like in Russia in the early 20th century) can still grievously threaten the state.

However in poorly industrialised countries, like Variyako and Russia, ignoring the peasants can have dire consequences. The interests of the peasants differs from workers owing to their material conditions; for workers it's normally a desire for a living wage and freedom from the alienation of work and life that capitalism perpetuates; for peasants it's simply full control of their land for themselves and their family. Worker's interests can easily resonate with other workers, whilst the interests of peasants are inward-focused. Furthermore, peasants often still remain as the linchpin of the agricultural industry. Thus the specific demands of the peasants must be met, lest they rebel against the workers who are otherwise stealing their grain to survive with nothing in return (often at gunpoint in the worst circumstances). The ruling class also frequently recruits from peasant populations to restock their reactionary armies, and many will join if they aren't also convinced of the need to overthrow the state and to ally with the workers.— NecrusIV (talk) 02:25, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Ah, makes sense I guess. I'll change it to a workers revolution, although the party would stress the moral purity of peasants. Or alternatively I could make it based on agrarian socialist ideas (eg. people's war). -Dog of War (2) (talk) 07:21, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Political Colours

Whatever you'd prefer. Personally i'd prefer the latter, it's a little more interesting and does fit in better with the ideals of Soziti purity. Also the military defeat of the Variyakoi government at the hand of Atraeth can give the LVP a window to take power with their peasant base (like in China with the KMT being weakened heavily by Japan). Also Khal and I thought that the flag be changed to something not so directly similar to real life communist symbology. We thought perhaps a use of black and white with a torch and garb of wheat. What do you reckon? — NecrusIV (talk) 11:22, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

I've done black and white with just the torch and the Soziti symbol. The wheat would have made it overcrowded imo. The red flame is meant to represent rebirth, hence its inclusion. That said I'm not 100% convinced on the black, although I'm not sure what other colour would look good. --Dog of War (2) (talk) 18:36, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Maybe white and/or grey? Plain red does look cool, but it could be easily confused with the red flags of Atraeth. I'd say green would also look cool, but it seems to be a Variyakoi national colour. As for other "political colours" in IP, blue is established as a colour of republicanism and anti-monarchism (predominately in Amlei & ex-amleian colonies, e.g. Etruarand, Virassian republicans & most western reformist parties, Sine Weythern, Quenylga, etc), grey by some anarchists (mostly Amlei), and red and white by the fascist people's liberation front (Amlei). It could draw from who they're influenced by. — NecrusIV (talk) 10:29, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Economics

What kind of economic theories are they using? Is it full-on Marxist labour theory of value, constant vs variable capital, tendency for the rate of profit to decline, stage theory, etc, or is it simpler and/or different? Being so based on religion, I can imagine a large degree of moralism persists around the question of exploitation of the masses by capitalists and bureaucrats, with party theorists blaming their lack of religious purity being responsible for abysmal wages, long working hours, the constant attack on rights at the workplace and so fourth, instead of the material need for capitalists to take the majority of the wealth workers to produce - and defending their ability to do so without worrying about pesky unions or production-hindering health and safety regulations and etc - in order to continue as a viable and profitable company (lest they are out-competed, fall in growth and become irrelevant). If you aren't too accustomed to Marxist economics/economics in general I'd be quite happy to write about it myself, you need only detail the kind of ideas you have for these guys and their politics. — NecrusIV (talk) 03:04, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

It would probably be simpler amongst the mainstream of the party (who are former religious figures and more interested in the practical revolutionary activities then economic side of things) although certain intellectuals may co-opt certain Marxist economic theory. They do have some acknowledgement of the labour theory of value.

As for the religious side, they see the exploitation of the workers/peasants being done to defend class positions and profit off of the labour done by workers/peasants. The latter would be a show of greed which would be considered unholy, and the former would be contradicting the tenet that proscribes "all men are equal" - as such the upper classes are in the LVP's eyes very ungodly. That said, the LVP don't like unions and believe that the economy should be managed as a collective (although like most "revolutionary" movements the "collective" should translate to the state/party).

If you want to write down their economic views go for it - just the one thing to bear in mind is that the senior leadership don't really have a clearly defined position other then opposition to the basic principles of capitalism, and mainly bank on vague populist rhetoric in economic matters. There are also divides in the party over the matter of industrialisation (some advocate for agrarian socialism in a similar populist manner to the Socialist Revolutionaries in Russia whilst others push for economic industrialisation)--Dog of War (2) (talk) 18:25, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

Ah noice. Even what you said here would make a good section on their economic views, so I'll just expand on that. I'm still not fully accustomed to the ins and outs of Marxist economics, so like everything else on this wiki, writing about it will be a good way to cement read theory into memory. — NecrusIV (talk) 02:20, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

Religious Ideology

Could have the interpretation of the "all people are born and should be, in the eyes of God, both equally pure and equally sinful" be criticised by Soziti traditionalists as being influenced by Seonsol notions of equality. Maybe even tie it into the whole Seonmi backing of the LVP. --Khalael (talk) 12:23, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Well, the imperial government is so deluded/unreceptive to facts that they do not believe that anyone other then Tzolkun or Atraeth is bankrolling resistance movements so top ranking scholars may not make that claim. However some lower ranking ones will definitely make the connection and criticise it accordantly. --Dog of War (2) (talk) 13:13, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

In that regard I can imagine that the imperial government would have a real obsession with mysticism, becoming quite out of touch with objective reality as they seek religious cures to the ills of the society they rule, employing holy men to fix the state with their faith healing and divine knowledge (in a Rasputin kind of way), obviously only making things worse as a result. — NecrusIV (talk) 13:37, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Oh yeah, I mean most members of the imperial court (outside of the foreign ambassadors) never leave the capital aside from holidays in country palaces. They essentially have no idea on want Variyakoi life is like and resort to the mystics and religious advice they have used for the last thousand years (it was only Seonmi pressure that forced them to start to modernise their military). --Dog of War (2) (talk) 13:45, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Oh yeah, good point. Sonyang are Variyako's loyal friends who'd never do something like that in the eyes of the leadership. It's Atraeth and Tzolkun trying to destroy the last bastion of Soziti society. --Khalael (talk) 19:59, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Soziti Strong (God is a Variyakoi). Remove Tzolkese. — NecrusIV (talk) 21:44, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-EQJA8Ahac --Khalael (talk) 14:19, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

I'll think I'll make that one of the LVF's political songs :^) --Dog of War (2) (talk) 18:11, 18 February 2016 (UTC)

I think it calls for an adapted video or even a song with Wunal lyrics that go to the melody of the original : ^ ) — NecrusIV (talk) 21:13, 18 February 2016 (UTC)